Daniel Ellsber on Manning verdict and why journalism is still threatened,
Exclusive: the first reaction of Daniel Ellsberg, author of Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers, to Bradley Manning’s acquittal on charges of “aiding the enemy,” but conviction under the espionage act, why journalism is still threatened, Manning’s motives, the positive consequences of his leaks — for instance ending America’s occupation of Iraq once and for all, and the importance of whistleblowers to a free society.
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Scott Horton interviews Daniel Ellsberg
July 30, 2013
July 30, 2013
Transcript
Scott Horton: All right, y’all. Welcome back. I’m Scott Horton, and we are joined on the phone live by Daniel Ellsberg, The Most Dangerous Man in America, the heroic liberator of the Pentagon Papers. Welcome back to the show, Dan, how are you doing?
Daniel Ellsberg: I’m doing okay. We’ll tell your listeners that you just informed me 30 seconds ago that Bradley Manning was found not guilty of aiding the enemy. That’s very, very important, and good news, because the alternative would have been extremely bad news. It would have been very close to being a death knell over time to investigative journalism in this country, which means a free press, which means ultimately democracy or any possibility of democratic control of our foreign policy, our defense policy, totally, if the prosecutor’s argument that his simply giving information to the internet and thereby making it available to the world, including whatever enemies we had, if that is enough to earn a death sentence or life in prison, without any attempt even to prove or indicate intent to harm the United States or to help an enemy – that’s the argument the prosecutor was making and the charges they’ve pursued ever since Bradley Manning pled guilty to 10 military offenses, which could still keep him in prison for 20 years, and I haven’t seen the full verdict here so it may well be that she has added some other offenses to that which may add up to a life sentence.
In my case, I didn’t face a single, one single count that carried a death sentence, such as the aiding the enemy charge in this case did, but I had 12 felony counts which added up to 115 years in prison, so the effect was much the same. That could still be the case here.
And this charge of aiding the enemy should have been dropped earlier. It was absurd and ominous and had the most ominous implications for journalism in general in this country and for our learning what our government is doing. I might also mention that that charge is one of two charges in the Uniform Code of Military Justice that is not confined to military personnel but says “any person” who does this, and so it’s even more ominous than it might be. So, given that that’s taken out, which frankly I’ve been saying yesterday was 50-50 in my mind, looking at the judge’s behavior and others who follow the trial have said they thought the odds were greater than that, this is good.
Scott Horton: Yeah. Well, you know, the way that the judge had helped the prosecution redefine the charges at the last minute there, some of the charges, not the aiding the enemy charge – that made me, you know – you’re a hell of an optimist, Dan, if you were giving it 50-50. I was worried it was a much smaller chance than that. So this is really great news. Now –
Daniel Ellsberg: Oh, it is. It is. I was refusing to be interviewed the day before the trial. I had a number of offers or proposals to be interviewed the day before the verdict and I said, “What’s the use of that?” You know, wait for the verdict. But in my own mind I did not want to rehearse beforehand how bad I was going to feel, and foresee, if he was found guilty of aiding the enemy. So I (laughs) – “sufficient under the day is the evil thereof,” my father used to quote the Bible, and I thought, okay, I’ll wait for the verdict.
I’m glad that I did now, and in this respect it’s very good. And we’ll see what the rest – there are several other stages to this now. I presume it’s already available and I haven’t seen it yet, what else she’s finding him guilty of other than the 10 charges that he pled guilty to. There were the remaining 12 charges including the aiding enemy. You don’t know offhand, Scott?
Scott Horton: Yes, sir. I’m looking at Alexa O’Brien’s twitter feed now, Dan, and she has found him guilty of espionage for the Iraq war logs, for the Afghan war diaries, and the Gitmo files. Those are three different espionage charges at least.
In this case, he’s charged with – and convicted, it seems, at this stage, and I’m afraid later – of violations of 18 USC 793. Actually this is a military trial, but he is the second person ever to be convicted by a jury – in this case, a judge – of that charge. The only other person was Samuel Loring Morison, a dozen years after my case was dismissed
for governmental misconduct, was found by a jury guilty of that violation, which Bradley is now the second person. There have been seven prosecutions, indictments, brought by Obama under that act, of which Bradley Manning was one. And there were only three by prior presidents, no president more than one. So Obama has now brought more than twice as many indictments under that law as any other, and to call it espionage in a way makes it sound absurd, because it obviously isn’t espionage, and as I say, that is actually incorrect.
But to use that law in that fashion is to use it as if it were a British Official Secrets Act which criminalizes any and all release of classified information, and that is in fact a very ominous development itself for investigative journalism because if any release of classified information, which after all occurs, usually anonymously, every day – in other words, there are thousands of cases and not seven, and not 700; it would be closer to 7,000 over a long period, of which Obama has prosecuted just seven. But if this is upheld, it will be one more precedent that will encourage Obama to bring even more cases, and even though then leakers, people who give unauthorized disclosure of information that the public needs to know and for which there will be no authorization because the government doesn’t want the public to know it, because it’s criminal, deceptive, reckless, irresponsible, whatever, it would be embarrassing, so they will not authorize information on that. An unauthorized disclosure will now not carry a death sentence or in itself a life sentence, but a multiplication of those could be a life sentence and even one can be 10 years, so that’s more than enough disincentive to keep us from having the information we need and to avert wars like Vietnam and Iraq. So this is bad news, but it could have been a lot worse. That’s all I’m going to have to say.
Scott Horton: Mmhmm. Well, now, there’s been a lot of smears, and, you know, TV hardly covers this subject of Bradley Manning and what he did and the trial and everything else at all, and when they do mention it, it’s always with a sneer and always taking the government’s side. I was wondering if you could remark about what you understand about Bradley Manning’s motives for leaking the Iraq and Afghan war logs.
So it’s a long process here. He did the right thing. I did the right thing then. I haven’t always done the right thing, the best thing, in my life, but doing what Bradley Manning did at a younger age was right for me then and it’s right for him now. So he remains, he will always be, a hero of mine.
Daniel Ellsberg: First to reveal to his commanding officer – well, to a superior officer – what he had discovered. And he was very excited by that. And he ran,
as everybody has agreed, he ran to the officer to tell him that he had discovered that these people were wrongfully convicted, wrongfully held, and were going to be tortured and should be released. The first point was that his superior officer told him that he should forget that, don’t worry about that; his job was collecting more suspects, on the same basis as before, and handing them over to the Iraqis – we got points for that, giving them prisoners to torture – and that’s what he should do.
Now that was an illegal response. The legal response would have been investigate this further and do what we can to stop it. We are legally obligated to do that. So the order not to investigate and not to act was an illegal order. Under Nuremberg it’s blatantly illegal, and he I think knew that. Certainly if you recognize it as such, it’s your Nuremberg obligation to disobey an illegal order.
Well, there was testimony during this trial by other members there that he came back and was very upset, quote, “very concerned,” quote, that nobody was concerned about this situation, that people, other people, weren’t worrying about it and that we were torturing innocent people and that that bothered him a lot. So since there was obviously a cover-up going on, he couldn’t really go higher in the chain of command with any prospect of doing it, he ended up doing exactly what he should have done, and that was exposing this situation to the American people in the hope, which his own defense attorney suggests may have been, quote, “naïve.” I would like to think that it was not totally naïve. If he’d thought that it was certain we would stop that practice if he only exposed it, that would be naïve, inexperienced. But he didn’t. He hoped that the American people would respond to this and be concerned, as he was, and stop it.
Well, the hope hasn’t been particularly satisfied, I have to say. I am very reluctant to say that it was an absurd, naïve hope, that there’s no hope that Americans will rise to this sort of thing, but there is an interesting contrast. I’m sure Snowden, when he released stuff to the American people, was thought to be, could be described as naïve, but again he thought his, his greatest fear he said was that nothing would change. Well, that’s likely. The probabilities are that nothing will change. But there really is a kickback on this one, and 205 people in Congress voted to rein in the NSA as a result of Snowden’s revelations, a very big effect.
Snowden has said he admired Bradley Manning, he said he admired me also, that’s a long time ago, and he was directly influenced by Manning, and he learned from Manning’s example not to release the stuff and stay in the country. Snowden would be in a cell like Manning right now, incommunicado, not able to take part in the debate over these issues, which is in this case a real debate had he made his releases while he was in the country.
So he learned from Manning’s case, Manning contributed to that and for what happens if we do manage to get the National Security Agency under some kind of democratic oversight and control, which it does not suffer at this moment – it’s out of control, it’s responsible to the president but the president and NSA are at this moment out of informed control by the public or Congress or the court, and if that changes, which may happen, and I hope it will happen, Bradley Manning will deserve some direct credit for that. And I’m going to leave it at that, if you will, Scott.
Scott Horton: Okay. Thank you very much, Dan. I sure appreciate your time on the show again as always.
Daniel Ellsberg: Thanks for calling. Bye.
Scott Horton: All right, everybody. That is the American hero, Daniel Ellsberg. He’s the liberator of the Pentagon Papers, and he’s the author of the book Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers. He’s the subject of the documentary film The Most Dangerous Man in America. His website is Ellsberg.net, and his twitter handle is @DanielEllsberg. And did I leave anything out? He’s the American hero who ended the Vietnam war. We’d probably still be at war in Vietnam right now if it wasn’t for him. That’s what I think. All right.
http://scotthorton.org/2013/07/30/73013-daniel-ellsberg/